Dialogue from the Factnet 2004. Between the LYM-members "Tom" and "anonymous" and the ex. members "reality check" and "Scott". This too is a loooooooong post, but revealing and important!
(Part 2)
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| Posted on Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 4:16 pm: |
Scott, of all the people on this board you seem to have the most impact on Tom. You are touching a nerve that unsettles him. If you dont mind me asking a few questions, how did you join the group , how long did you remain a member, why does the group employ physical restraint ? and in what cicumstances have you seen it employed?
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TOM
| Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 1:26 am: |
If only Scott were so honest.
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SCOTT
| Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 10:18 am: |
Hey Curious,
I was working with ANSWER at the time, and I came across somebody at a table who was talking to people who was very intelligent and obviously knew what he was talking about--he and I both didi a great deal of reading, and I was interested in what he was doing--I felt there had to be more than just marching, so I gave my number, and later when they called, I was hounded for $200, told that I could definitely afford it, and was so ticked off by the person I nearly hung up--but then I told her to get the person I had talked to at the rally on the phone, and consented to go to a retreat--people seemed nice, if some of them were a little weird, and two seemed mentally handicapped--we went through hours and hours of classes, and LL made a conference call to us that scared the living hell out of me--I had no idea things were this bad...I noticed a few weird things on the retreat but I put them at the back of my mind...after the retreat I hung out with them a bit more, classes, etc., got a little more frightened about the world situation (this also right after 911 mind you), and became convinced that these people were the only way to fight, and thought LL could be President--I wasn't really given a very accurate account of his past etc., but slowly, the truth was given to me about the endless candidacy, that LL has no intention of becoming president (though he always said "I'm going to win", and was introduced at speeches as "the next pres of the US--). The closer they bring you in, the more truth they let you know, by the time you figure out they've been brazenly lying in your face you should already be completely conditioned...in the beginning I was told all the credit card fraud was government conspiracy, agent operations etc., after 5 months several people admitted to me that they had been told to do it (add zeroes to credit cards as well as take loans they never intended to repay) by the leadership (because of course the world's future depended on it--the whole organization is 1984 in a nutshell--a nutshell with hundreds of nuts inside :-]).
You should read what I've written elsewhere on the board, too, to read a good example of physical restraint, but I can tell you exactly WHY they do it.
In their conditioning/brainwashing it is necessary to confuse a person's mind to the point that reach an emotional collapse, to hammer at them constantly about personal issues, or incidents, or their past, until at some point in their defense of themselves, they become confused enough to make a mistake, then that contradiction is hammered on until they emotionally collapse (or really have a complete psychotic break), and then new information can be easily implanted in their head, they can be talked to in a calm soothing voice, and after being viciously attacked they take the safe harbor of that voice. The problem is many people, if they are being attacked or insulted this way, will not defend themselves but just leave the situation--walk away. They need to keep that person in the room for any meaningful conditioning to take place, therefore they employ the physical restraint (one case involves someone being tied to a chair while being held in her apartment). Usually its done more simply; someone is called to the leaders office for a "meeting", during the "meeting" a member of LL's security squad (2 or 3 people at every office have fighting and weapons training, as well as the weapons), will stand in front of the closed door. Or in group meetings other members will hold each other in.
This is only one method that is used; I was in for about 8 months and I was in about half a dozen of these meetings--however a microcosm of this is happening all the time you are there--nearly every conversation goes like that--go talk to a Larouchie at a table somewhere, and you'll probably notice the same pattern. They teach it to you under another name "Beyond Psychoanalysis" and "Socratic Dialogues".
Tom's last remark is an example of a very common tactic to use on new recruits; if he makes an argument that has teeth he will be told simply,"You're not being honest" and given no explanation to back up the statement--and when I used to ask what do you mean by that, they would simply reply,"Think about it." The point is to constantly keep the psychological tension on, and to keep the person so focused on improving themselves and learning how to please the cult. Once they do everything "right", once they fail to question any directives or actions, and figure out how to pull in their quota of money each day, they get rewarded, and the terror stops...until inevitably, a piece of their old self pops up, or they want to go see their family, or an old friend, or take a vacation, then they end up in one of those "meetings" are broken again, and go right back to being "well organized individuals".
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TOM
| Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 12:49 pm: |
You stayed for eight months? Why so long?
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SCOTT
| Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 2:40 pm: |
Well after about 3 months I began correctly using the in-group language, after 4 I had learned how to live on three dollars a day, 5th month was touch and go but by then I was getting very good at breaking up democratic forums, on the 6 month they really started hammering at me in "Beyond Psyche Sessions", at the 7th month I was damn near totally brainwashed and beginning to act like a trained dog, and then in the 8th month I read a book...a book on brainwashing, and I looked around in horror at all the brainwashed people around me--I realized a majority of them were former members of other cults or had Larouchie parents, and that most of them, when all was said and done, just really weren't that sharp, nor did they have personalities of their own anymore.the only thing they could discuss was Larouche or related topics..and when I asked them what had happened to them, they stared right back at me,and with a hurt expression on their face said "Where DID my personality go?" And they searched their pockets for it,"I remember having one of my own," they said,"..oh well..Larouche says that..." And then I got the hell out. I advise you to also Tom.
Did you really want to know Tom? Is that really an HONEST question? Do you think Lyn is going to make a successful bid for the President's seat this year Tom?
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REALITYCHECK
| Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 3:23 am: |
I remember the feeling of fearing for my life the day I got out. I promised myself to never trust people like that again.
I remember when I use to have a crush on a certain member in the office until one day I went to the store with another organizer and she totally brainwashed me about how it was wrong to like him because he was gay and that it would be easy for L's enemies to profile me. The nite before I had slept with a guy I met. She told me that I was basically a slut for sleeping with him and didn't want me to give the impression to other people that Larouchies sleep with anyone. I felt like a piece of crap after that.
The physical restraints that you are talking about Scott I never saw that. If you wanted to leave you could leave but if you had no money to take the train home or even your own car you were screwed. You practically had to beg someone to drive you home. I was homesick all the time but I sacrificed everything to do something good or so I thought.
I left after six months which was more than enough for me. I left because I was so tired of working 14 hour days with 2 bucks in my pocket each day.I can't even budget my money so I was always hungry. I left more so because there were "personality clashes" with me and other people. I just knew I wanted to do what I wanted not what someone else wanted.
Whenever my personality surfaced with wanting to do something "degenerate" I always said to myself well "Larouche says..." Even after I left I still kept saying it. It's kind of hard when you have to deprogram yourself with the reality shock. A great weight had been lifted and the chains of slavery had been broken.
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SCOTT
| Posted on Saturday, March 13, 2004 - 1:35 pm: |
Sometimes I think it may be impossible to get those thoughts out of your head--I become myself more and more each day, but since those people focus on every facet of life, it's hard to remember sometimes how my opinion was changed.
When in that atmosphere, you have small psychotic breaks all the time, it's specifically intended to do that--the people who walk in the doors without much direction in their life find it easy to assimilate. Usually they grab people in an in-between stage in their life, usually 18-19 year-olds in the first year away from home...you haven't even made up your mind on many life decisions because you haven't crossed that point in the road yet. I want you to remember that not all of what they say is wrong--it's what they do to people. Larouche is like an Elmer Gantry, a faith healing evangelical huckster, someone who preaches the word of God, but for his own ends (and in the end doesn't follow the word himself). A con man of the lowest sort, who appeals to the good nature of humans for his own gain. A man who defrauds democracy every year by taking millions of dollars in matching funds for an election campaign that never intends to win, and uses the money to live in style, be waited on hand and foot, travel Europe, and give speeches to adoring audiences of flatterers of his own creation.
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SCOTT (in answer to a person that says that there are other groups than LaRouches that are cults...)
| Posted on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 11:02 am: |
So your basic argument is this: There are other groups of a political, religous, or military nature which use similar tactics as the Larouche cult.
That is no argument. Of course their are other groups that use the same tactics--they are just as destructive (if maybe a little less zealous than the Larouchies).
If you really are here genuinely, and not being subversive it sounds like a youth group came after you--sometimes they do that. I'm sorry it happened to you. It's not normal.
The Marines do it, too, and if you think Marines are emotionally stable people you're smoking something--do a few quick searches and you'lll find that domestic abuse, murder, and suicide rates are extremely high among Marines, and higher among Delta Force/Special Ops.
You have to understand that this is the whole point--poeple have no right to force their views onto other people, no right to throw mental chains over them. That is what this country has grown into, from its roots as purely Christian, as a place where people respect each other and each others beliefs whatever they may be. To change those beliefs the only acceptable method is education and encouragement, open discussion which includes, above all else, tolerance.
The Larouche "movement" is a Totalitarian Political Cult which has no conscience or moral compass, and promotes ideaology strikingly similar to Hitler's. Movements like his must be completely stamped out from the face of the Earth if we are ever to achieve a truly free society--I saw too many bright young minds that were enslaved by a true sociopath, people who were unable to think outside of the framework into which they had been brainwashed. I remember one young girl studying engineering at Morgan State, very interesting and very smart--after a few months her personality had been completely erased and she had been given a new one. The same one every one else there had.
To have you say that it's no different than any other group is a great disservice to the people who have literally "lost" their loved ones to these monsters. Since I left almost two years ago and wrote a few articles about my experience in college newspapers and on the web, I have had parents and relatives and friends e-mail me, all asking the same thing, "Can you tell me what happened to my child/sibling/friend? He scares us now, he doesn't like anything he used to, he sells newspapers in the street all day, he called his father a fascist, he dropped out of med school, on and on and on....if you're a Larouchie, I'm sorry, try and get out if you can, I know you see what's happening around you. If not, just be thoughtful about what you post here--there are people who might be coming here wondering what this group is going to do to them, or if they can be trusted, and since you don't know, you should really think before you make comments.
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| An anonymous post Posted on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 9:17 pm: |
See, the flaw you all have in your thinking is that there is more going on in the real world than ANYTHING being addressed here. Nony, you know as well as anyone here, that if there had been such things 40 years ago as message boards and chat rooms, that the exact same type of thing would have been used against Martin Luther King. "This man's organization is fanatical! Not only do they endanger thir own lives for this cause, but their whole families too! Just last month, a woman named Viola Liuzzo was SHOT and killed. That never would have happened if she hadn't joined that smooth-talking communist. Talking about 'world peace' and 'brotherhood' and all that smack. When will he just get that the human race CAN NEVER integrate like he wants? Sure it's a great idea, but lets be realistic. How dare he talk about defeating this political system?!? Sure it's racist, but it's not about defeat, it's reform. This guy King doesn't even support our troops!" Hmmm...sound familiar? I could post the same type of thing about Gandhi, or JFK, or Lincoln. None of it's true, but it was all said anyway.
In the mean-time, dear old Mr. Winstead promulgates lies, and the housing market starts to tumble! Guys, I'm sure that most of you are not bad people. If the things you were saying about the LYM were true, you'd have the right to be enraged and terrified. But they're not. And to sit in a room full of people(even an electronic one) and only be willing to speak calmly to people who agree with you, IS masturbatory. You're not looking for truth; you only want to make yourselves feel good; stroking other people by internet. It's completely dishonest.
If you were genuinely concerned about the 'danger' of this 'cult' that I'm in, you would engage in a TRUTHFUL, honest effort to save me. Not demean me. My ideology is uplifting. Yours as exemplified so far is sickening, and I'm incredibly grateful I'm not victim to it. If I'm wrong, please correct me. Tom and I are both willing to discuss it. And Mike, Ms. E___ S____ is a spunky character. She's got the strongest personality here, especially when the sparks fly, it's fun! So once again, stop lying. It's rather scummy.
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SCOTT
| Posted on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 2:30 pm: |
Is that David? Hi Dave, how are you? Dave was the first Larouchie I ever met--I think if it had been anyone else I would never have signed up. You're one of the people that hurts me to think about most, someone who is intelligent and kind-hearted and before he got caught by Alex and the Larouche gang he probably had a very bright future ahead of him. I wish I could figure out a way to save you, Dave. Many nights we talked David, both of us trying to figure out what was wrong in that organization, how it could be changed so that it could actually accomplish the goals it purports to be working for. We wondered why Larry screamed at people behind closed doors when they were new, you remember Big Ronnie? He said the night he left "it's psychological conditioning and I'm not going to take it"--well, he was right. Everyone said the same thing, too--Larry "used to be" really bad, but not anymore--the truth was he broke them down in the first couple months then after that it wasn't necessarry. You and I discussed how could people like Charles exist in the "movement"--this time bomb who will one day explode and either go on a killing spree, or just kill himself(or maybe you guys use him to go after people like me?)...there was a story Vic told me about working intersections with Charles one day; he turned around and looked and he saw Charles beating some motorist, literally punching him in the face while this poor guy is siting in his car probably going to work. You think Charles is ok? You think Beyond Psyche has turned that guy into a powerful organizing machine? Into a humanist? You know why noone tries to help that guy? Because he goes out there every day and raises money. Put the pieces together Dave, you're a smart guy.
You talk about how uplifting your ideaology is, all I can answer that is: so what? What are you gonna do with that? Nothing. Nothing good anyway. Raise money and recruit. You can point to the housing market and say,"hey look the market's down, join a fascist!"--and history teaches us that that's the way it happens--Lyn doesn't run his organization like the high yellow clone of MLK and FDR that you folks claim he is. He runs it like a dictator, and the organization interrupts real political gatherings and recruits just like a fascist movement.
Your policies are simplistic jokes, your ideaology a piecemeal smorgasboard of people who actually risked their lives for change--Lyn is so paranoid and full of fear that his own organizers go through metal detectors before they hear him speak. The only time people in the LYM endanger their life for the cause is when they stay in the intersection to try to get another buck when the light is about to change.[to those out of "the loop" this is not a Jermiah Duggan joke]
Tell me I didn't watch Debbie Freeman physically stop Marsha from trying to leave a room while she was breaking down in tears, and then force her down into a chair. Tell me I just made it up for some reason. Tell me that the reason I've heard similar stories from the CEC in Australia and the USA presently, and from Dennis King's Book 20 years ago is because we all collectively lie, and want to subvert a great man. For some unknown reason--oh wait--because I'm an agent, and Australia is the home of Oligarchs, and Dennis King smokes pot, and so we are all caught up in an evil conspiracy to kill 3/4 of the world, and Larouche and a 1000 minions selling newspapers are the only thing stopping it. Does that sound plausible? All this for a guy who the best he can do is garner 25% in a primary in the home state of the KKK?
Wake up.
And while you're at it take a minute to try and figure why he got such a large percentage in the primary in a state with no Larouche offices. Then after you're done thinking about how people everywhere know about Lyn through some imagined groundswell of support go read the KKK lit that uses EIR and Lyn to fill their magazines. Then go read Hitlers philosophy of man in Mein Kampf and compare it to Lyn's. Then sit and wonder where exactly you're at right now.
If you would just look around you and see that most everything the "movement" talks about as a conspiracy or "operation" in the world is going on in front of you--pure doublespeak. You talk about sitting in a room and stroking egos--stroking an ego is telling some college dropout who's begging for money at a table at their old school that they're saving civilization, that, my old friend, is stroking an ego. Sitting in the back room of some low rent office and discussing how you are "more human" than anyone else in the world is stroking an ego. Give him a column in the morning briefing, STROKE!, get him to teach a class, STROKE!, send him on a trip to Europe, STROKE! I think of Dennis Speed talking at a retreat about how "they keep your mind occupied all the time with pop culture to brainwash you"--what do you think a 14 hour Larouchie day does? They keep you so busy you have no idea what's happening, and its all-Larouche programming from morning till bed. You're one of Huxley's mental slaves--taking in only L-approved information, with no ability to think for yourself. All the talk about how everyone else in the world is trying to brainwash you, but not a single person there could tell me what actual brainwashing is. I found out. It was happening to me. It was written out in plain English. A straight blueprint of what had been happening to me.
"If you were genuinely concerned about the 'danger' of this 'cult' that I'm in, you would engage in a TRUTHFUL, honest effort to save me."
I am concerned about you, I fear for you spiritually and physically. My greatest fear is that Lyn is right now in the "breakdown crisis stage" he claims the world is in, and before he dies he will do something terrible to make his mark--they were always asking us if we were willing to die for these ideas...I have a feeling that maybe he's going to give you all a chance. If nothing like that happens what will you do when he dies? You know every one of those regional leaders is going to try and grab power, that movement will be Afghanistan in the small--are you going to be a Freemanite?
I wish I didn't have to be so harsh. I'm not angry at you--though I've wished many days I had never met you--any other Larouchie in that office I would have dismissed. The same reason you were able to get me to a meeting though, is the same reason I know you can break the hold--you're more analytical than most of the people there. I will help you anyway I can. If you want help, send me an e-mail and from there we'll get on the phone and talk.
Life is a lot more complicated than Larouche vs. Evil. Take control of yours, and learn what it's like.
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ANonymous post again
| Posted on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 8:47 pm: |
I'm not dave. Ronnie came back for a long while over the summer, but you know that, don't you? He's a really smart kid. You did a good job ruining his mind-last I heard, he took your advice to go be a security guard. Nice comparison to an intense lifestyle of studying and developing intellectually, huh? However, the things you're saying about the Youth Movement are simply not true. The young woman you spoke of and I both have repeatedly gotten into screaming arguments with LKF. It's funny actually. Thank god the youth movement runs itself; it really helps the boomers a LOT. They help where they can, and offer even when they don't. Offer alot! However, thankfully, most of the people you drove away that fatefull summer-and I have to give you credit for thoroughly disrupting our activities; you're a mighty smooth liar-have come back, and brought friends with them. We're growing, and it's exciting! You see, it's living proof that when young, uncorrupted minds work to recreate the discoveries of the great Renaissances that have uplifted human society before, that man's true nature shows. And the rest of human society does in fact respond to that! Tom, I concur with you wholeheartedly. No further discussion on these terms is useful. For further discussion, my work e-mail is mariel_at_lym@yahoo.com. Any truthful discussion is always welcome. But Mike, really-don't lie.
Always in truth,
Me
P.S. Await an article on the recently concluded, wildly successful organizing blitz in Alabama!
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SCOTT
| Posted on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 10:48 pm: |
Well, Mariel (?), I said I watched Debbie physically tackle Marcia, a fifty year old woman--I was hoping for Dave though, but I guess you all sound alike so I really can't tell the difference. If Mariel is your name I don't know you, and I don't think you know me, so everything you're saying is just rumor anyway.
My worst regret about Ronnie is that when he asked me to actually drive him away in my car after taking a severe psychological beating behind closed doors I told him no because someone told me not to. He was stuck in the office in Baltimore, with no money and virtually trapped.
Maybe someone sees how damaged the older members are and is trying to move them away from the youth, its a start, but its still a cult, and you're still a nut, even if its not your fault. I hope you get help, I'll send you a personal note soon...
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TOM Posted on Saturday, April 10, 2004 - 1:07 pm: |
Hey, Scott!
I’m sure you heard the old joke that goes something like this:
Q. How do you know when an FBI agent is on your case?
A. Your garbage can is turned over, and your dog is pregnant!
I didn’t think it was very funny either, and I was concerned about what would happen now that the offspring are all grown up, sort of.
Lie number 69: "can you imagine teaching someone that people who tried to keep mercury and lead out of our drinking water were actually trying to kill 3/4 of the population?"
We never did that either, but I’m beginning to believe that trace elements of pierced metal induce psychosis. The only thing you're tearing apart is your nipple. I suggest you take that ring out of your nipple, and pierce your lip, top and bottom. Use plastic; stay out of trash cans, don’t scratch at the fleas too hard, and stop masturbating at strip joints.
I’ll just keep waiting for anyone to challenge me on the axioms.
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SCOTT
| Posted on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 10:56 am: |
Tom, you don't understand the same thing Larry couldn't understand when he tried to break me down--I'm not ashamed of who I am. Why does it matter to you if I touch my own penis? Do you think about it a lot? Do you worry about my pierced nipple a lot? I'm thinking of getting the other one done, does that mean that I am part of the "environmentalism conspiracy" to kill all the humans? I should also add that someone who brainwashes people into dropping out of college to sell newspapers in the street has absolutely no moral authority to tell anyone anything.
"I just keep waiting for anyone to challenge me on the axioms."
Do you know how crazy you sound to anyone who lives in the real world?
But while we're on the subject of axioms [Webster defines axioms as:a proposition assumed to be true without any proof], don't you see that that's exactly what Larouche has done to all of you? Brainwashed you into a close minded state boxed in by a bunch of axioms where the only solution is to raise money for a lunatic who couldn't get elected mayor of Dogpatch, Connecticut?
Axioms of Larouchies:
All music but classical(and only some classical) was spawned by a conspiracy and is essentially evil.
Environmentalism is a fraud perpetrated by people who want to depopulate the Earth.
The world is in an economic melt-down crisis.
FDR's antiquated economic policies are the only way to promote growth, and Larouche, a man convicted of defrauding the population he claims to be helping, is the one to implement them.
If you could begin to break those axioms Tom you may be able to see what's happened to you, however those things have been hammered into your brain from the day you first got involved.
You were scared to death by Larouche in speeches of the "hell on Earth" that would ensue were you not to accept him as your saviour and spread his gospel, just as John Wesley did to begin the Methodist church (though of course JW threatened with Hell and promoted Jesus, not just himself).
You were given those axioms in countless "classes". You were taught these things while working 14-20 hours a day, and with low nutrition, while being told to turn away from your old friends and activities, and eventually were broken down in Beyond Psychoanalysis sessions where you confessed things that you were ashamed of. You eventually began reporting other people's "blocking" (disloyalty, questioning) to the regional leader. This mirrors the indoctrination camps of early Red China.
Sometimes a person with an atonal monotonous voices would sit and talk to a group of you for over an hour--usually about God--in a calm soothing voice. This is hypnotism.
Excitable outgoing types, maybe yourself, were encouraged to commit acts of violence, like the beating of leftists during "Operation Mop-up", or fighting with security guards while breaking up democratic forums. This type of activity acts as emotional blackmail,"If my axioms that Larouche gave me aren't true, then I was just beating people up/I was ruining an open political debate (I was just begging for money in the street)."
God forbid you were a female who got pregnant, for then they were able to use the ultimate tool in mind control; pain and suffering, as they took you off to the abortion clinic.
You've been brainwashed, Tom. I'm sorry. Breaking your axioms will mean letting go of the entire fantasy of world importance, and reevaluating many of your actions. You're under the spell of people who use an explicit, exacting set of mind control techniques to make you their puppet. They know how to push your buttons better than Pavlov with one of his dogs.
Maybe you've been around long enough that most everything is self-reinforcing, and all you get is an ego-stripping session once in a while from Lyn himself.
It's brainwashing, Tom, that's why people everywhere call your "movement" a cult, because it's obvious to people that you've been brainwashed. It's obvious to strangers who run into you that something is wrong with you. That's why people who have never heard of Larouche (i.e. Larouche slanders)before are constantly on message boards with comments like "Half of me says that's weirdly interesting and half of me is thoroughly creeped out." (real quote)
You're no different than the Moonies, or the Krishnas, or scientologists, or a dozen other cults, you just have a different message. And you're all victims. And the people on this board would like you to see that. I feel sorry for you that you're flailing your literary fists at me with personal insults, I don't understand what you think it accomplishes. Your free will has been subverted, there are ways to regain it. There is a Tom that existed before this "movement" caught him, and brainwashed him.
That's why you're here Tom.
You're here for help.
Do you need some help? Help finding a place to stay? Help getting a real job? Someone here might reach out their hand if you just ask.
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