| An interesting and very revealing dialogue from the Factnet in 2004, between "Tom", a member of the LaRouche Youthmovement and "Scott" an ex. member. (This is a loooooong post, but important!) ****************************** http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/4/20395.html?1086276000 SCOTT Posted on Thursday, February 19, 2004 - 2:48 pm: |
I would like to say that I have had a similiar experience to Alexandra's, and though it's been over a year now I'm still not quite myself. Looking back, I still can't believe how susceptible I was to what I have now realized is a "method" of pschologically coercing people to join the group, mainly so that they will raise money, and in such demeaning ways as standing in the street and selling newspapers at intersections, harassing individuals in their cars one by one. I have spent a lot of time trying to figure out whether the "Movement" is really a cult or not. I think a number of their platforms are very sensible, and they do espouse revolutionary ideas that could really help the world, not to mention that they have an amazing intelligence gathering organization, and are often on the forefront of breaking scandals. LaRouche himself is an extremely intelligent man. All that being said, I spent about 8 months in the organization and at the end I was completely terrified of what might happen to me if I tried to leave. I organized for them full time almost immediately after attending one of their retreats, and working for them 14 hours a day, attending their classes, subsequent retreats, and trips to other cities, in a few months my mind had become so focused on LaRouche and the ideas that he was espousing that I could think of nothing else. I remember at one point walking around in a crowded grocery store, and vaguely hearing "Larouche" seeming to emanate from the lips of people who were conversing with each other, calling my stepdad (and others) a "fascist" one day, and just being completely unable to discuss anything outside of Larouche ideas, or art/literature that was "approved".
Indeed during the one afternoon a week we had off, the organizers generally got together (and were encouraged) to strategize or discuss the ideas of the movement.
I was having problems in a lot of ways though accepting the ideas or methods of the movement, and would bring up in meetings how it seemed a little "cultish", how it was obvious some people had no idea what they were talking about, but raised money and so were never questioned by the leadership and were called "good organizers". When I raised these points I would be attacked, and invariably the next day I would be sent out with Kevin or Alex G., two older organizers who understood best how to push psychological buttons and "organize people." I would be attacked personally and things about me would be brought up about me that I didn't understand how they could know, references to conversations I had that I didn't understand how they could have known, and though I'd rather not mention this, personal sexual habits. I had meetings with the leadership of a few people in a room all breaking me down from different sides. I was accused of being an "agent" for not agreeing with them.
All were encouraged to take up intense study projects, and I had taken up several into MLK, Plato, and Shakespeare since I began working with them. These things kept my life rich and I was learning like I had when I was in college, so I felt good about being there. Then one day during a class the teacher mentioned a book about brainwashing, and because we talked so much about it, I decided I should take up a study on it.
on my next day off I went to the library and picked up a few books about it "Battle for the Mind" by William Sargant being the best overview, but the dozens of in-depth books gave me a much deeper insight (and many were written by more respected psychologists). After an hour of reading I was scared out of my wits. The more I read, the more I saw the events of the last 8 months of my life being written out in a book that was 50 years old. From the coercive meetings(not only with myself and the leaders, but during one day I saw an older woman broken down into tears during a group meeting, and then phsically blocked from leaving the room until she, through tears, admitted her faults and that she needs to work harder), to Larouche's style of speaking (to scare people to death about the "World Financial Collapse" and then offer himself as the only solution"), and the lack of sleep, overwork, and diminishing pay (when I began I was given about $250 a week with $200 a month rent, by the time I left it was $67--some full time organizers I met told me they were paid $50 every two weeks), which meant that I was hungry most of the time.
For a week I still went to the nightly meetings but told them I couldn't organize. I read about two dozen books and was shocked time and time again as nearly every incident that had seemed odd to me before was layed out in case studies and psychology manuals. The spell being broken it was very easy to see everything happening very clearly. It was easy to talk with Alex or Kevin or the leader, Larry, hear them speak and know exactly the method they would use and what they would say. I was very sad to see other organizers who I really liked and know they were trapped, know that many of them had been there for years and thrown away their lives, or were from other countries and had been brought there. One girl was coerced into having an abortion (something I later found out was common in the Larouche movement not to mention made sense in psychological control methods). In the last few days I slept with a pile of chairs in front of my door as a warning signal in case anyone should try to come in, and kept a large kitchen knife next to my bed. One day, in the room that they had given me in an older organizers house, I found that there was a passage (made as an attic originally, I was in the upstairs of the house)from the next room and a hole in the wall that someone could watch me through (the walls were made of stained hardwood and had black knots in the paneling, one of these had a hole put through it where you could see the bed).
That was the last straw. I spent a few days writing a report to try and tell fellow organizers what I had learned, and then I got the hell out of there. I'm not even sure of how the few days after that went--I think just showed up at my parent's house, and didn't say a word about it, and they knew something bad had happened.
As to criticizing Lyn (as organizers like to call him), what I've come to understand is that the organization organically developed this way, rather than being its initial intent. It probably became cemented this way after Lyn's imprisonment, during which he became extremely paranoid, and self important (though I guess some very questionable things happened before that). While tax evasion/fraud is a charge used to put a lot of people away that powerful organizations don't like--I once was at the Larouche farm in Leesburg, and while waiting for the bathroom discovered 2 interesting books in his downstairs office (by the way none of them were Plato or Ben Franklin). One was a poorly put together book (made at a Kinkos possibly) entitled "How to Cheat the IRS", the other an ordering catalog for listening devices and various other espionage technologies(night vision goggles etc.). I also know he personally engages in techniques used to mentally overpower and coerce people, I've listened to it on conference calls to his adult organizers on the phone team, and its outlined in his "Beyond Psyche" papers, which is merely a rather thinly veiled brainwashing tutorial, and I'm pretty sure, as well-read and intelligent as he is, he understands that. It was a very hard thing to convince myself that I was in a bad place, and that I was being taken advantage of, at least until my last study (and I guess I stayed there for a week or so during that too--though half of the reason is that by that time, I had alienated anyone who would have helped me out of the situation), but the one thing I could always hold on to, the contradictoin that stuck out the clearest in my head, was that if they believe so much in the human mind, and the power of each individual as they claim to, how he could have ordered young wives (and though I only know one, I can't imagine how many there were, since I saw it in a book from 1985) to have abortions. I'm not a big pro-lifer or anything, but the girl I knew, all she wanted in her life was a child, and cried about the experience to me on many occasions.
While I think politically some of the ideas are apt, and the economy of the world is hurting, I think ultimately the organization is a danger to young people, and a danger to society as a whole. Many of the organizer are trained with weapons and how to fight, and own weapons, I know in the office I worked there was a picture up of a girl (the one previously mentioned actually) shooting a Kalishnikov AK-47 rifle in the mountains. I can only imagine what LaRouche will order his followers to do when he feels he is near the end, or what his lietenants will do with their respective organizations once he is gone (dead that is). Some of them I imagine will start their own cultish political organizations, and a few of them, as militant as they are, will do a great deal of damage to young people, and continue to do damage to the ones already there. Among many of the sick things I saw there, one that should be mentioned I think is an 18 year old organizer being taken advantage od by a 36 year old organizer (as he fed her alcohol and talked "philosophy").
There are so many people like that young girl, and the older ones, who will never be able to live normal lives. I imagine Tom, that you are one of these people, and I feel very sorry for you. I'm sure you can find out who I am, and I know what you'll hear about me (you'll probably be told I'm an agent provacateur). I think you're probably looking at this site because you have your own questions, and your last message said you're losing interest, I imagine because Alexandras message hit too close to home. I would like to have correspondence with either of you, especially Alexandra though--honestly I want to talk to someone about this so bad, but it's been more than a year and I've not been able to truthfully talk about it to anyone. My email is scottmo7776@yahoo.com
For the rest of you, while I welcome your e-mails if you have questions or would like to send me a comment, I would just say stay the hell away from these people.
Scott, These are some fairly serious accusations, and if I were just to dismiss your testimony as I have dismissed some of the other foolishness on this board, I would be remiss. My initial response is to remind myself that many individuals who have left the organization, have formulated elaborate reasons for their departure, post hoc, that have nothing at all to do with the actual reasons they left.
If you think I am going to be shaken by anything you’ve written, think again. I’ve heard worse. Some of it might even have an element of truth, but it’s invariably distorted for effect. It’s as if the person has to construct an excuse, flesh it out, give it bells and whistles, and blow it up, so they can convince themselves, and others, that their failure to continue the fight is justified.
For example, I’ve been in the basement you were in. I’ve seen those books. What’s interesting is the way you constructed your description of what you saw. I give you credit for being crafty. Some of LaRouche’s enemies who read this message board will probably be thinking something like this: “Lyndon LaRouche spies on the members of his organization, using sophisticated electronic devices!”
This is simply laughable. If I throw those particular books in the trash the next time I’m down in that basement, no one will miss them, especially Mr. LaRouche. But you should have looked around a bit more. You would have seen a lot of books down there, in some of the other rooms. We keep them around, and read them so we have more insight into the way our enemies think. The Ben Franklin, Plato, Shakespeare, etc., is upstairs.
At the same time, I know of others, including some who I count as friends, who have been in the organization--and have dropped out under various, unfavorable circumstances--who are not compelled to make up a bunch of B.S. We all know that the mission Lyndon LaRouche leads is extremely difficult, but anyone who is rational and honest, is capable of understanding that it is necessary and good.
I also know each of the individuals you cite in your testimony. I can tell you that I agree that at least one of them is a pain in the ass. I’ve had big arguments with him myself, but I know he is not the whole organization. I suspect that if I go work in a “normal” job someplace else, I’d find some jerks there too. Come to think of it, if my new workplace turned out to be anything like some of my workplaces before I joined LaRouche’s organization, I’d probably find a lot more jerks then I ever found around here.
While there are other accusations you have raised that should not go unchallenged, I’ll just leave them alone. I really don’t feel all that compelled to mount an itemized defense, but I could. Whether each of your accusations is wholly truthful, and whether what is implied by each of your accusations is at all truthful, or whether anyone who reads this message board believes they are truthful, doesn’t really concern me quite as much as it seems to concern you.
In the final analysis, I think you’re just like a shell-shocked coward. If you were a soldier acting like you’re acting now, General Patton, bravely fighting Nazi’s, might have slapped you good. However, as I wished the best for Alexandra, I wish the best for you. I can only conclude that you, like Alexandra, simply did not have the stomach for the fight. Judging by a small part of what you have written, I hope you can at least agree that everyone here should hope that the fight is eventually won by Lyndon LaRouche, and not his enemies.
Well, Tom, the thought that I was just "scared of the fight" occurred to me also, but what I think you be missing is the fact that Larouchies are not soldiers fighting Nazis, but young people and adults have have been brainwashed very thoroughly into raising large sums of money. One of the things that becomes strikingly clear now that I'm away, is that nearly half of the people in the office I was at had parents who were Larouchies and dragged them into it, or were former members of other cults/fundamentalist movements. Just like any other cult, there is an "in-language" used among members "fundies" "utopians" "boomers" "universal physical principles"--and while some of these things do have meaning outside of Larouchedom they have "special" meaning to the Ls, because they have been drilled with "classes" in which they were scared to death about the "impending financial crash". I used to eat dinner with Mark and Karen (two older orgaizers) and their daughter would come. One day as Karen warned her daughter about the crash which was "coming soon"-she responded, with tears welling in her eyes, that Karen had been saying that to her for nearly twenty years. Many Larouchies also were in the middle of drug problems when they were picked up by the L team, which made them even more susceptible. Bruce director's "math classes" are designed to cram massive amounts of complicated information into someone's brain so fast, that the overload and stress it causes makes people susceptible to the errant phrase about Larouche's heroism that the robotlike Bruce inevitably throws in (I doubt he's even aware). I would walk out of those classes after an hour or so, leaving fellow organizers to sit and stare blankly at Bruce, none of them learning a damn thing about geometry (rarely did anyone even take notes, or do the hundreds of hours of work necessary to even grasp those concepts-not that they were meant to). Larry would sit and give a speech about God in a monotone droning voice, after which people made comments like "wow" or "awesome" and looked shellshocked, though later nobody I asked could really give a clear account of what was said (and I was asking becasue I really couldn't remember). It was hypnotism. Larry used to scream at me in his office. When I would talk about it with other organizers, they all said the same thing,"He used to be a lot worse, but now he's calmed down." That's because everyone that came in there was broken down psychologically, and once they were, rarely had to be yelled at anymore, being that the situation is so self reinforcing (especially trying to explain to people on the street the secrets of God the Universe and the all powerful Larouche while hungry and tired). I heard new people tell me that were screamed at to their face that they were useless, or losers, or degenerates (My favorite insult I heard was "lazy nobody"). I had one young 18 year old beg me to take him to a train station (I had my own car), but pressure was put on me not to, and I was told I would be a traitor if I did so.
As to hoping Larouche wins, I believe if he did win you would see the sort of brainwashing camps set up as were in China during the Communist Takeover, and Concentration Camps like you saw in WW2 for those who are "degenerate" or labeled as "fascists". I think he would use the emergency powers of the president to make a military state, imprison much of the congress, and his underlings, drunk with power after the long struggle they've faced (and chomping at the bit for revenge from all the insults)would be the source of massive corruption, human rights violations, and suppresion of freedoms. I think you would see a massive jump in production, along with a deterioration of the environment, but ultimately, a complete end to the American way of life.
Anyone who reads Larouche should read Mein Kampf, and understand that many of the EXACT SAME IDEAS ARE ESPOUSED. You should read KKK literature, much of which is copied verbatim from Larouche publications, and is the answer to why Larouche did so well in the Arkansas primaries in 2000 (though there is no official L office, the head of the KKK is in Harrison, AK). You should understand exactly what brainwashing is, and how it works (this site does an OK job of explaining it, but the older books written in the 50s are closer to the methods they use, being that it is a political organization and this site covers all cults).
I can definitely say that I hope he dies soon. The damage that he is causing to young people for many will never be undone. I have a feeling that in twenty years there will be several hundred insnae homeless people who are very good at geting money at intersections, and talking to themselves about world conspiracy, though I also have a feeling that many of them will commit suicide when he finally kicks it.
Cynicism is difficult to combat. It often devolves into existentialism, or even nihilism. The fault dear Scott, lies not in our stars, but, in ourselves that we are underlings.
I am reminded of the fact that professionals who work with schizophrenic patients generally work for six-month stretches, then they are required to get away for six months. This is a standard procedure simply because the condition of schizophrenic patients has a powerful, detrimental effect on the therapist. I fear that if anyone were to spend too much time with you, Scott, they would suffer.
Again, I am not compelled to mount an itemized defense. Almost all of what you have written is, admittedly, rather stark, but it is preposterous overall. The stuff about Mein Kampf, for example, is way over the top. Your parting shot about suicide reveals a deeper insight into your condition.
Today, I am fully confident in saying there is absolutely no valid excuse for not fighting the good fight. It’s very difficult, but no one I know is in it to find a comfort zone. Here in Los Angeles, I am surrounded by a growing number of young people who are happy to be part of Lyndon LaRouche’s movement, and I am also happy.
I assure you, there is no combination of words that you can ever put together on this message board that can ever change that.
Yes Tom, they're singing SLAVE SPIRITUALS. I wonder why those songs are so appealing to the "movement" and its leadership? I'm sure those kids are also slowly destroying their relationships with their parents and friends. Losing any sense of their individuality. Becoming thin. Getting screamed at that they are weak or degenerate if they feel they can't keep up 16 hours day (or at least aren't pulling in the money they need to).
I think it's great that you do have 100 voices telling you everything is ok, drowning out reason--I know how hard it is to see through--I can imagine anyone in Rev Moon's cult in a stadium of 100,000 thinking,"This is what God intended." Or a Krishna in the middle of a drum circle, or a Jonestowner living in perfect harmony in the woods, or any other person who was going through a transitional period in life and was snatched up by a cult and given an entire life to live. There were two types of people in the "movement"--manipulators and the manipulated. I have a feeling Tom that you are one of the latter, but maybe beginning to "graduate" to being one of the former. You're starting to understand how to use personal attacks to undermine someone's confidence in their own beliefs. Learning how to use guilt to get money out of people more effectively, how to stroke their prejudices. You're learning like many Larouchies and other cult members before you how susceptible young women are in the first few months of "organizing". You're starting to see the patterns of behavior, and changes in speech, that happen to everyone that comes there. How, after a while, though they all come with personal goals and artistic differences, they soon come to think exactly like you and everyone around you does, and you've all decided, all 500 of you or so, to save the whole world from itself. And that beautiful sacrifice you're making, for the betterment of all human kind, that sacrifice that makes your ego swell, that sacrifice makes you worthy of being a Philosopher King (someday), that sacrifice, means its not important what your actual political effect is, it's not important that you break up real political conferences like the fascist organizers of old, its not necessary to defend the fact that Larouche writings starkly resemble the writings of Hitler, there's no need to explain why young wives are pressured to have abortions against their will, it doesn't matter that you've taken advantage of feeble-minded seniors and duped them out of their fortunes, it's not important that the "crash" has been coming for thirty years, there's no need to explain why "leaders" in each region have nice homes while street organizers are packed into Apartments like sardines, and that of course, since "we" are collectively making such a huge sacrifice, there's no reason why anyone needs to think for themself.
So we have a rally to swell our egos, yelling at the sky in a group of thirty, we go interupt real candidates speeches to give us a sense of importance, behind closed doors talk about "the population" to inflate our sense of superiority, and till late in the night read about the works of great human beings, so that the next day we can stand in front of a Post office and beg for money,and hope to get enough that nobody is angry with you. Like a whore in the street, but instead of selling your body, selling ideas of virtue and beauty and humanistic goals. And like whores you all have a special case of VD--a mix of totalitarianism, fascism, and racism.
I'm sorry that you can't see it.
I understand though.
It's a hard world in which to be a sovereign individual and make your own choices.
I had a friend in the "movement" that begged me to get her away, said she was scared for her life. She talked that way on and off for 6 months. Then after I left, I called her one day to tell her I would help her go, but she told me she had been "doing a lot of work" with Debbie and Larry(regional leaders). She now understood her "place in the universe" and it was "fighting the oligarchy". Her voice had even changed back to the higher tone I was used to hearing when she spat out her verbatim scripts to people she was "organizing". She literally had a split personality, her real one, and a Larouche personality, that used words like "oligarchy" and "Universe" and talked on "the highest level".
Most of them were like that if you got close enough (at least the ones who had been there long enough). They still had their real self hiding underneath the personality that had been broken down and built in Larouche's image, sometimes it would peek out just for a minute or two, but in a flash it would be gone again. Those are people that I still have hope for. Others, older ones usually, had broken down their old self and hid it away so far it could never come back, or never liked themselves to begin with so they don't see any reason to go back.
Which one are you Tom?
I think you should go do some reading Tom, read Mein Kampf, read The Battle For the Mind, challenge yourself.
Ask the hard question.
Am I in a cult?
No Tom, the real person comes out, the human being, who after years of life experiences and learning has come to know things and react in the ways that make them who they are. Every one comes in to that organization as an individual, but the longer they stay the more "homogenized" they become, and I know you know exactly what I mean. There is absolutely no individuality, no personal interest, no free will. It's inhuman.
Of course my description is ugly. I have seen ugliness in my life; watching drugs destroy friends or family, the extreme racism of Mississippi, cops beating protesters, sweatshop workers, war, murder, cruelty--none of these things are more ugly, and vile, and corrupt than what the "Larouche Movement" is doing to young people. It's psychological expirementation on wheels. Political attack dog-guinea pigs. What those people are doing is stealing the most precious gift we get as humans and turning it to their own purposes. And if you would just step outside of the situation and examine it rationally you would understand that. You would see the pattern of exploitation that is taking place. The use of your fears about the world, to cement your dedication to a group and a man who, to be honest, don't have very great track records.
Sure, the world is a hard place--but if you would just realize that the "movement" claims to be fighting everything the interior organization is:
It is a complete totalitarian dictatorship.
People are paid a very low wage.
The "movement" produces nothing of value or usefullness.
There is "one way" for everything, not a "Dialogue of Civilizations".
The organization has cheated people out of money and the leadership will admit this.
The organization focuses on the less-educated, the poor, and promising them salvation for support(money), effectively loots poor areas.
They talk about "the population" as if they were separate somehow from them, and obviously better than them, which to me sounds a lot like the attitude of a fascist, or a racist, or an oligarch.
The organization spends a great deal of time talking about the "brainwashing" of the public by mass media, etc., while using the exact same techniques on its followers(just the simple repititon used in Hitler's "Big Lie" theory--how many times a day do you hear the world is headed for disaster Tom?).
I remember the week after I realized what was going on there, I just walked around in horror and disgust at everything I saw, everything was so transparent once my eyes were open. I lobbied Congress with a group of 10 or so Larouchies--I had been 5 or 6 times before with them, it always seemed productive, and that the people we spoke with respected us. I'll never forget how that last time that I went I could see the smile in every Legislative Assistant's eyes as he listened to people rant about Universal Physical Principles, FDR, and Geometry. I noticed the EIRs in trash cans of offices that others had already visited. I watched with pure horror as one young girl forced a cheaply printed piece of literature into an LA's hand and pleaded,"You've got to read it, it's deep philosophical stuff."
I could finally see that we were just one of the freakshows in the political circus.
And everyone knew except for us.
My glass is half full? The one thing I know about the folks in the Larouche movement is that they are all very well trained in the ways of rhetoric and argument--you, Tom, seem to be failing in that respect. I'm starting to wonder if you're an organizer at all, maybe you're just somebody that's been hanging around the "movement" forever, but never really goes "whole hog".
Can you imagine getting into an argument on the street, or better yet standing at a literature table, and having someone tell you that you are expressing pessimism, and so you should,"make it the opposite," and it will sound much better? Doesn't that sound a bit like doublespeak, Tom?
Doesn't that sound like lying?
I understand what you're trying to say Tom. My argument is based on a wholly unjustified feeling state, and therefore is invalid. However, I'm making concrete factual points, and not emotional appeals. When I say that L's "Beyond Psychoanalysis" is a step-by-step brainwashing manual, what you need to do is then go out and get a book on the dialectic method(s) of mind control. Then you need to compare it to what you read in "Beyond Psyche". You will find they are EXTREMELY similar, to the point that "Beyond Psyche" is really just a paraphrasing of what might be called "The Manual for Mind Control". However you will not do that. It's potentially damaging to you.
Those who didn't break in the first couple weeks were the ones that got screamed at a lot. They were also usually the ones that after a month or so would find some back door to flee from, after a good night's rest, or a visit to a friend. What I think usually happens is, there's too big of a contradiction, some concrete fact or action that flies in the face of what the "leaders" are saying, and it brings down the whole house of cards. Your fundamental axiom that is incorrect is that the "movement" has a positive effect in the world. That's why you are unable to refute the things I write with cogent arguments Tom.
The truth is always there waiting for you--since Day One, Tom, you have been learning about how people run operations, religous/political groups brainwash people, and the basic mechanisms people use to attain power. The question you must ask , Tom, you must look around yourself and ask,"What is the operation HERE?" What's going on? What's actually happening? People speeding off in all directions every morning to collect money, to come home in the afternoon to collect more money. 6 days a week. And what comes of it? There are never any results, Tom. Well, regional leaders live in nice homes, and seem to have their pick of sexual partners among the organizers. I guess something comes of it. Lyn travels the globe giving speeches to half empty auditoriums.
You've been fooled, Tom.
So was I.
So were a lot of people.
I know you're starting to suspect that.
If you're younger, I hope you get out of there.
If you wait too long, you won't be able to leave, or at least it will be very difficult. People in my office were not only trapped psychologically, but in some cases physically (literally not allowed to leave by means of force). Not to mention after being there for any length of time you will have become virtually unemployable, have no money to escape with, and be living hand-to-mouth.
If all of what I'm saying is untrue Tom, it shouldn't be hard for you to go away for a week and come back. You should go visit your family Tom.
Try to find a friend you had before this.
Remember that once you didn't wake up in the morning constantly thinking about a man who, honestly, hasn't accomplished very much.
It will be hard to admit Tom. The truth when you're in that situation is terrifying. You have made so many choices reaffirming the beliefs that were given to you. Social networks. Simple daily habits. You have to open your mind. Get some rest. For a moment stop thinking about the tasks you've been assigned, throw off the slave mentality.
Take a good hard look at what I've written on the board.
See if the ideaological claims of the "movement" line up with the physical actions of it.
To all else posting on this board, I think you should try and be nice to Tom, I remember telling people the exact same things he's pushing, I remember being excited, and thinking I was fighting to save the world. It was great. Finding out that there were dozens of groups (cults with a prophet that used mind control) around the world just like it was heartbreaking. To admit that I had been tricked after spending months arguing with people otherwise (from my family and friends to people on the street), was the hardest thing. Give Tom some space to breathe. Something terrible has happened to him. If he didn't at least suspect it I don't think he would be here.
If that's your attitude, take the rest of your life off. Visit your friends and family. Get a therapist. I think you just found the organizing too difficult, and got frustrated. Then, you looked for an excuse to give up.
You might succeed in getting LaRouche’s opponents on this message board to believe that your problems are typical, and that your description of events on this message board is accurate, but around here, things are very different. If they weren’t, we would not be recruiting so many new people, and having so much fun. For your sake, and others like you, I hope LaRouche is all wrong about the political and economic situation, but I don’t think he is. According to your own words, neither do you:
“I think politically some of the ideas are apt, and the economy of the world is hurting”
Here is how I will remember Scott:
One day, Scott met the LaRouche organization:
“I think a number of their platforms are very sensible, and they do espouse revolutionary ideas that could really help the world, not to mention that they have an amazing intelligence gathering organization, and are often on the forefront of breaking scandals. LaRouche himself is an extremely intelligent man.”
Scott made some progress:
“All were encouraged to take up intense study projects, and I had taken up several into MLK, Plato, and Shakespeare since I began working with them. These things kept my life rich and I was learning like I had when I was in college, so I felt good about being there.”
So, he became an organizer:
“I organized for them full time almost immediately after attending one of their retreats”
Scott even organized the Congress:
“I lobbied Congress with a group of 10 or so Larouchies--I had been 5 or 6 times before with them, it always seemed productive, and that the people we spoke with respected us.”
But Scott had lingering personal problems. He
“was going through a transitional period in life”
He became depressed and fearful:
“Like a whore in the street, but instead of selling your body, selling ideas of virtue and beauty and humanistic goals.”
“the thought that I was just "scared of the fight" occurred to me also”
“I went to the library and picked up a few books… After an hour of reading I was scared out of my wits.”
Scott had lost his wits. Evidently, among the scary stuff Scott had begun to read was Mein Kampf, and some KKK literature. He tried to get others to read:
“It's a hard world in which to be a sovereign individual and make your own choices.”
“I think you should go do some reading Tom, read Mein Kampf”
Scott’s condition worsened. He began to hear voices:
“I remember at one point walking around in a crowded grocery store, and vaguely hearing "Larouche" seeming to emanate from the lips of people who were conversing with each other”
Eventually, Scott began to have sick thoughts about death:
“I can definitely say that I hope he [LaRouche] dies soon… I also have a feeling that many of them [LaRouche youth] will commit suicide when he finally kicks it.”
Hey, Scott! You should have stayed with the MLK, Plato, and Shakespeare!
“I remember being excited, and thinking I was fighting to save the world. It was great.”
That's precisely it Tom! THAT is the insanity I'm referring to. The need to filter and revise all history/current events to fit the Larouche world view. It's as if someone wrote "I would love to hurt you" and you picked out,"I love you"--the words are there right?
I'm very concerned about this Tom. You obviously spent some time on this. I'm wondering how entrenched you've become in the "movement", how long they've had you. Have they moved you away from your state/country of origin?
Context is an amazing thing; if anyone else had written something akin to that I would say its a very clever argument, but I understand what I'm dealing with, and its the psychological beating you've taken that made that your only solution.
In the dialectic method of brainwashing, someone is questioned (usually rapidly)until some contradiction is made. That contradiction is used to hammer at a person's defenses, used to convince them that they are confused or wrong--then some indoctrination can occur directly after they breakdown. You've been having a hard time dealing with me, because everything is written down, and has to make sense. The organizing model for Larouchies is to put people in a stressed mind state, and then pile information onto them after they've been softened up, and then ask them to do something. For a $2 donation at a lit table, a good scare about the economy and their future is enough; if one were being forced to kill their unborn child so they don't have to get a real job and leave the cult it would take several hours of softening up, using past incidents that may be highly personal and using a pressure group that includes a lingering threat to personal security (a blocked door perhaps).
One day I stayed in the office instead of going out in the field, I was about 2-3 months in, and just starting to feel like I was accepted (though I was still being accused of being an "agent"). About mid-day we broke for a conference call with Lyn. Through the speaker, Larouche is assessing his troops. About an hour into it, an "incident" was brought up concerning Marcia. Marcia is in her fifties, and is about 5' 2", I doubt she weighs over a hundred pounds. The incident concerns Marcia, her husband, and a roommate--it seems like some frivolous dispute, but no one is mentioning any specifics; it could have been about stealing a bagel or high treason. Marcia is being questioned about her view of the events, which obviously took place inside of her house with the two other organizers. Lyn begins to tell his version of the event (though of course he was not there). He tells her it is her "witch" flying around. This incenses Marcia, who has a very clear perspective on what happened, and feels she has been wronged. This back and forth happens for a few minutes, but Marcia, not up to the dialectic skill of Lyn,is becoming confused and upset. He is telling her over and over his version of the events and intermingling into his statements descriptions of her fears and personal shortcomings and telling her it was her own emotional state that was making her view things the way she did. She has begun weeping. Others in the room are interjecting their thoughts of what "her problem is" and they confer as if she wasn't there. Marcia is slowly shaking her head "no" and staring at the floor through tears. Someone who also wasn't in the house during the incident begins a diatribe on how "we are all scared of the mission, and Marcia's problem is that...". Lyn agrees, and tells Marcia it's time that she confessed, and told the truth about what happened.
"That's NOT what happened." She says sternly to the phone on the floor. Debbie Freeman, who had been hovering nearby, quickly moved in front of Marcia's chair. Debbie is nearly 6 feet tall and not thin by any standard. She begins yelling at Marcia.
"ADMIT IT, MARCIA."
"no, that's not how it happened"
Marcia has by this point broken into a real sobs, Debbie repeats her command relentlessly, but Marcia holds on to her response. After a few rounds Marcia can no longer respond. She is crying hysterically. Finally she stands, and says,"I'm getting out of here," (by which she means the room).
"DON'T LET HER LEAVE!" yells Debbie, as Marcia scurries toward the door, Debbie, seeing no one respond to her order, dashes for the door and blocks her way. Debbie, towering over Marcia, grips her shoulders and physically moves her back to her chair. Marcia is told to sit down. She does so, still sobbing. Debbie leans in and talks sternly to Marcia, but in a quiet soothing tone, recounting the "truth" to Marcia one last time. Marcia can no longer fight back so she just sits and cries. The room slowly clears out as the phone team heads back to the calling room. I am sitting in the corner, Marcia is in the middle of the room crying.
It would be months before I understood what had happened in that room, though I would see the same event unfold dozens of times, with greater and lesser degrees of severity, with different characters, different incidents and locations.
Larouche describes these sessions in his essays "Beyond Psychoanalysis" and claims the method is the most powerful psychological tool available to help people overcome their own fears and problems. However, a full twenty-five years before Lyn wrote those essays, the world was just becoming aware of "Brainwashing". Robert Lifton, Edgar Schein, and William Sargant put out books describing what was happening in the re-education camps of the Chinese. Lyn's essays take the core strategies of the method and puts them in a slightly altered form--I guess the main difference is just that Lifton or Schein would portray it in a negative light, because they see it as monstrous.
Lyndon Larouche, however, who is obviously an "ends justifies the means" type of guy. He believes that the lack of morality will eventually destroy society. I think he feels that brainwashing people in order to spread his beliefs is justified. He has no intention of being President you know, I think he just feels that in the "war of ideas", the "good ideas"--which means conservative European ideas--the only way to win is to send his flock out to prosyletize. And his "work" of course gives him super human status that excuses him from any wrongdoing, such as the subversion of your free will Tom.
Look it up.
Do the reading.
Find out what has happened to you.
As to staying with King, Plato, and Shakespeare, I have done so--I perform Shakespeare, discuss Plato with friends, and work on campaigns to help labor unions at hom and abroad organize. It's not my job though, so I'm not begging for money, and the most amazing thing of all, the biggest difference, is that when I work on a campaign, I see results. Actual physical results. Actual people making more money, and getting better work conditions.
That's the difference between a political movement and a cult, Tom. The only result your organization produces is more brainwashed people. That's how you measure success Tom. More people are joining up! More people sing our songs! And the leadership counts success in dollars, because then, "We can get more people to join up( whisper:and get nice houses)!". But the organization doesn't DO anything but leech off the working class.
That's not a domestic dispute Tom. People in this country don't have workplaces where incidents like that occur. Legally, what I described would be called kidnapping. Assault and battery. You cannot (legally) physically force people to sit and listen to you scream at them.
There are no holes in my argument, Tom.
I'm sorry, Tom. You have no idea how much it hurts me to read your posts and remember when I was like that. There I had found the freedom of mental slavery--for a short while I had actually put every desire and dream of my own away, and given over nearly every decision in my life to other people. At first it was just where I would live, and go during the day, what I would read, and say to people, eventually I was to the point where I would think whatever they told me to. I'm sure there was something you wanted to do with your life before this Tom. It's very easy though to let someone else make all of your decisions for you, to not have to take risks, to have no uncertainty. I know how safe it feels.
But its not real, Tom. Groups like that are everywhere. You can find descriptions of them on this website and others. The descriptions aren't Larouche slanders, they're not written by "agents of the oligarchy", they're not "operations". The "movement" just uses the same tactics and has the same basic goals of a dozen other cults.
I know it's hard to see, Tom. If your Mother is not in the "movement" you should call her and talk about this with her. I know, I know, your mother is just inundating you with her "Mother's fears" about the big outside world and perhaps is a corrupt baby boomer. However, she probably also knows you better than anyone else in the world, she probably remembers when you used to have goals of your own, interests and activities. Call her, I'm sure she misses you.
Here is something posted on this site:
Common Properties of Potentially Destructive and Dangerous Cults
The cult tends to be totalitarian in its control of the behavior of its members. Cults are likely to dictate in great detail what members wear, eat, when and where they work, sleep, and bathe-as well as what to believe, think, and say.
The cult's leaders center the veneration of members upon themselves. Priests, rabbis, ministers, democratic leaders, and leaders of genuinely altruistic movements keep the veneration of adherents focused on God, abstract principles, and group purposes. Cult leaders, in contrast, keep the focus of love, devotion, and allegiance on themselves.
The cult's leaders are self-appointed, messianic persons who claim to have a special mission in life.
The cult is authoritarian in its power structure. The leader is regarded as the supreme authority. He or she may delegate certain power to a few subordinates for the purpose of seeing that members adhere to the leader's wishes and roles. There is no appeal outside of his or her system to greater systems of justice.
The cult has basically only two purposes, recruiting new members and fund-raising. Established religions and altruistic movements may also recruit and raise funds. However, their sole purpose is not to grow larger; such groups have the goals to better the lives of their members and mankind in general. The cults may claim to make socialcontributions, but in actuality these remain mere claims, or gestures. Their focus is always dominated by recruiting new members and fund-raising.
Back to Anonymous (the "WTF" guy) the real scare in Larouche is separating the crap from the truth. You may know that we live in a world where bad people do bad things, and sometimes they are kept secret. What the L team will do is foind out things--intelligence horrible acts governments commit (genocide etc.), and scare the crap out of young people that this is happening all around them, and, most importantly, that because the L team may be the only people talking about the problem, that the only way to not be complicit with the problem is to join "the fight" and work for them. Of course "the fight" consists of collecting money, and finding more people to collect money, and while all this is going on a psychological profile is being created on the person--each person in the group who spends a day with him reports back anything personal they've learned, and he's watched very closely in general, and finally, after a few weeks or so, he has some questions. He's not sure what's going on in the "movement". He's tired, he's hungry, he's been bombarded with information that is very specific, connecto-s of weird plots that have happened in history. He's sent into to the leader's office to have his questions taken care of, and it begins. The real mental workover, the yelling, the pschological profile is put to work, the personal information comes out--anything he might have been embarassed or ashamed of his hammered on until he admits he's wrong. In his weakened state he's told to buck up, there's a chance to redeem yourself and save the world tomorrow...you may go now. And he begins to work at it, frightened of haing his mental buttons pushed again, which they surely will be, he does the best he can--in a few months--everything they say is pure truth.
The Battle for the Mind, William Sargant. Read it start there, you can help him, but you have to understand what happened to him, and whats still happening.
And yeah Tom is losing his edge, because he's starting to see the patterns, I've told him what's happening and its getting a bit clearer.
For a week I still went to the nightly meetings but told them I couldn't organize. I read about two dozen books and was shocked time and time again as nearly every incident that had seemed odd to me before was layed out in case studies and psychology manuals. The spell being broken it was very easy to see everything happening very clearly. It was easy to talk with Alex or Kevin or the leader, Larry, hear them speak and know exactly the method they would use and what they would say. I was very sad to see other organizers who I really liked and know they were trapped, know that many of them had been there for years and thrown away their lives, or were from other countries and had been brought there. One girl was coerced into having an abortion (something I later found out was common in the Larouche movement not to mention made sense in psychological control methods). In the last few days I slept with a pile of chairs in front of my door as a warning signal in case anyone should try to come in, and kept a large kitchen knife next to my bed. One day, in the room that they had given me in an older organizers house, I found that there was a passage (made as an attic originally, I was in the upstairs of the house)from the next room and a hole in the wall that someone could watch me through (the walls were made of stained hardwood and had black knots in the paneling, one of these had a hole put through it where you could see the bed).
That was the last straw. I spent a few days writing a report to try and tell fellow organizers what I had learned, and then I got the hell out of there. I'm not even sure of how the few days after that went--I think just showed up at my parent's house, and didn't say a word about it, and they knew something bad had happened.
As to criticizing Lyn (as organizers like to call him), what I've come to understand is that the organization organically developed this way, rather than being its initial intent. It probably became cemented this way after Lyn's imprisonment, during which he became extremely paranoid, and self important (though I guess some very questionable things happened before that). While tax evasion/fraud is a charge used to put a lot of people away that powerful organizations don't like--I once was at the Larouche farm in Leesburg, and while waiting for the bathroom discovered 2 interesting books in his downstairs office (by the way none of them were Plato or Ben Franklin). One was a poorly put together book (made at a Kinkos possibly) entitled "How to Cheat the IRS", the other an ordering catalog for listening devices and various other espionage technologies(night vision goggles etc.). I also know he personally engages in techniques used to mentally overpower and coerce people, I've listened to it on conference calls to his adult organizers on the phone team, and its outlined in his "Beyond Psyche" papers, which is merely a rather thinly veiled brainwashing tutorial, and I'm pretty sure, as well-read and intelligent as he is, he understands that. It was a very hard thing to convince myself that I was in a bad place, and that I was being taken advantage of, at least until my last study (and I guess I stayed there for a week or so during that too--though half of the reason is that by that time, I had alienated anyone who would have helped me out of the situation), but the one thing I could always hold on to, the contradictoin that stuck out the clearest in my head, was that if they believe so much in the human mind, and the power of each individual as they claim to, how he could have ordered young wives (and though I only know one, I can't imagine how many there were, since I saw it in a book from 1985) to have abortions. I'm not a big pro-lifer or anything, but the girl I knew, all she wanted in her life was a child, and cried about the experience to me on many occasions.
While I think politically some of the ideas are apt, and the economy of the world is hurting, I think ultimately the organization is a danger to young people, and a danger to society as a whole. Many of the organizer are trained with weapons and how to fight, and own weapons, I know in the office I worked there was a picture up of a girl (the one previously mentioned actually) shooting a Kalishnikov AK-47 rifle in the mountains. I can only imagine what LaRouche will order his followers to do when he feels he is near the end, or what his lietenants will do with their respective organizations once he is gone (dead that is). Some of them I imagine will start their own cultish political organizations, and a few of them, as militant as they are, will do a great deal of damage to young people, and continue to do damage to the ones already there. Among many of the sick things I saw there, one that should be mentioned I think is an 18 year old organizer being taken advantage od by a 36 year old organizer (as he fed her alcohol and talked "philosophy").
There are so many people like that young girl, and the older ones, who will never be able to live normal lives. I imagine Tom, that you are one of these people, and I feel very sorry for you. I'm sure you can find out who I am, and I know what you'll hear about me (you'll probably be told I'm an agent provacateur). I think you're probably looking at this site because you have your own questions, and your last message said you're losing interest, I imagine because Alexandras message hit too close to home. I would like to have correspondence with either of you, especially Alexandra though--honestly I want to talk to someone about this so bad, but it's been more than a year and I've not been able to truthfully talk about it to anyone. My email is scottmo7776@yahoo.com
For the rest of you, while I welcome your e-mails if you have questions or would like to send me a comment, I would just say stay the hell away from these people.
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ANSWER BY TOM TO SCOTT
| Posted on Friday, February 20, 2004 - 2:29 am: |
Scott, These are some fairly serious accusations, and if I were just to dismiss your testimony as I have dismissed some of the other foolishness on this board, I would be remiss. My initial response is to remind myself that many individuals who have left the organization, have formulated elaborate reasons for their departure, post hoc, that have nothing at all to do with the actual reasons they left.
If you think I am going to be shaken by anything you’ve written, think again. I’ve heard worse. Some of it might even have an element of truth, but it’s invariably distorted for effect. It’s as if the person has to construct an excuse, flesh it out, give it bells and whistles, and blow it up, so they can convince themselves, and others, that their failure to continue the fight is justified.
For example, I’ve been in the basement you were in. I’ve seen those books. What’s interesting is the way you constructed your description of what you saw. I give you credit for being crafty. Some of LaRouche’s enemies who read this message board will probably be thinking something like this: “Lyndon LaRouche spies on the members of his organization, using sophisticated electronic devices!”
This is simply laughable. If I throw those particular books in the trash the next time I’m down in that basement, no one will miss them, especially Mr. LaRouche. But you should have looked around a bit more. You would have seen a lot of books down there, in some of the other rooms. We keep them around, and read them so we have more insight into the way our enemies think. The Ben Franklin, Plato, Shakespeare, etc., is upstairs.
At the same time, I know of others, including some who I count as friends, who have been in the organization--and have dropped out under various, unfavorable circumstances--who are not compelled to make up a bunch of B.S. We all know that the mission Lyndon LaRouche leads is extremely difficult, but anyone who is rational and honest, is capable of understanding that it is necessary and good.
I also know each of the individuals you cite in your testimony. I can tell you that I agree that at least one of them is a pain in the ass. I’ve had big arguments with him myself, but I know he is not the whole organization. I suspect that if I go work in a “normal” job someplace else, I’d find some jerks there too. Come to think of it, if my new workplace turned out to be anything like some of my workplaces before I joined LaRouche’s organization, I’d probably find a lot more jerks then I ever found around here.
While there are other accusations you have raised that should not go unchallenged, I’ll just leave them alone. I really don’t feel all that compelled to mount an itemized defense, but I could. Whether each of your accusations is wholly truthful, and whether what is implied by each of your accusations is at all truthful, or whether anyone who reads this message board believes they are truthful, doesn’t really concern me quite as much as it seems to concern you.
In the final analysis, I think you’re just like a shell-shocked coward. If you were a soldier acting like you’re acting now, General Patton, bravely fighting Nazi’s, might have slapped you good. However, as I wished the best for Alexandra, I wish the best for you. I can only conclude that you, like Alexandra, simply did not have the stomach for the fight. Judging by a small part of what you have written, I hope you can at least agree that everyone here should hope that the fight is eventually won by Lyndon LaRouche, and not his enemies.
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SCOTT
| Posted on Friday, February 20, 2004 - 10:43 am: |
Well, Tom, the thought that I was just "scared of the fight" occurred to me also, but what I think you be missing is the fact that Larouchies are not soldiers fighting Nazis, but young people and adults have have been brainwashed very thoroughly into raising large sums of money. One of the things that becomes strikingly clear now that I'm away, is that nearly half of the people in the office I was at had parents who were Larouchies and dragged them into it, or were former members of other cults/fundamentalist movements. Just like any other cult, there is an "in-language" used among members "fundies" "utopians" "boomers" "universal physical principles"--and while some of these things do have meaning outside of Larouchedom they have "special" meaning to the Ls, because they have been drilled with "classes" in which they were scared to death about the "impending financial crash". I used to eat dinner with Mark and Karen (two older orgaizers) and their daughter would come. One day as Karen warned her daughter about the crash which was "coming soon"-she responded, with tears welling in her eyes, that Karen had been saying that to her for nearly twenty years. Many Larouchies also were in the middle of drug problems when they were picked up by the L team, which made them even more susceptible. Bruce director's "math classes" are designed to cram massive amounts of complicated information into someone's brain so fast, that the overload and stress it causes makes people susceptible to the errant phrase about Larouche's heroism that the robotlike Bruce inevitably throws in (I doubt he's even aware). I would walk out of those classes after an hour or so, leaving fellow organizers to sit and stare blankly at Bruce, none of them learning a damn thing about geometry (rarely did anyone even take notes, or do the hundreds of hours of work necessary to even grasp those concepts-not that they were meant to). Larry would sit and give a speech about God in a monotone droning voice, after which people made comments like "wow" or "awesome" and looked shellshocked, though later nobody I asked could really give a clear account of what was said (and I was asking becasue I really couldn't remember). It was hypnotism. Larry used to scream at me in his office. When I would talk about it with other organizers, they all said the same thing,"He used to be a lot worse, but now he's calmed down." That's because everyone that came in there was broken down psychologically, and once they were, rarely had to be yelled at anymore, being that the situation is so self reinforcing (especially trying to explain to people on the street the secrets of God the Universe and the all powerful Larouche while hungry and tired). I heard new people tell me that were screamed at to their face that they were useless, or losers, or degenerates (My favorite insult I heard was "lazy nobody"). I had one young 18 year old beg me to take him to a train station (I had my own car), but pressure was put on me not to, and I was told I would be a traitor if I did so.
As to hoping Larouche wins, I believe if he did win you would see the sort of brainwashing camps set up as were in China during the Communist Takeover, and Concentration Camps like you saw in WW2 for those who are "degenerate" or labeled as "fascists". I think he would use the emergency powers of the president to make a military state, imprison much of the congress, and his underlings, drunk with power after the long struggle they've faced (and chomping at the bit for revenge from all the insults)would be the source of massive corruption, human rights violations, and suppresion of freedoms. I think you would see a massive jump in production, along with a deterioration of the environment, but ultimately, a complete end to the American way of life.
Anyone who reads Larouche should read Mein Kampf, and understand that many of the EXACT SAME IDEAS ARE ESPOUSED. You should read KKK literature, much of which is copied verbatim from Larouche publications, and is the answer to why Larouche did so well in the Arkansas primaries in 2000 (though there is no official L office, the head of the KKK is in Harrison, AK). You should understand exactly what brainwashing is, and how it works (this site does an OK job of explaining it, but the older books written in the 50s are closer to the methods they use, being that it is a political organization and this site covers all cults).
I can definitely say that I hope he dies soon. The damage that he is causing to young people for many will never be undone. I have a feeling that in twenty years there will be several hundred insnae homeless people who are very good at geting money at intersections, and talking to themselves about world conspiracy, though I also have a feeling that many of them will commit suicide when he finally kicks it.
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TOM ANSWERS
| Posted on Friday, February 20, 2004 - 4:00 pm: |
Cynicism is difficult to combat. It often devolves into existentialism, or even nihilism. The fault dear Scott, lies not in our stars, but, in ourselves that we are underlings.
I am reminded of the fact that professionals who work with schizophrenic patients generally work for six-month stretches, then they are required to get away for six months. This is a standard procedure simply because the condition of schizophrenic patients has a powerful, detrimental effect on the therapist. I fear that if anyone were to spend too much time with you, Scott, they would suffer.
Again, I am not compelled to mount an itemized defense. Almost all of what you have written is, admittedly, rather stark, but it is preposterous overall. The stuff about Mein Kampf, for example, is way over the top. Your parting shot about suicide reveals a deeper insight into your condition.
Today, I am fully confident in saying there is absolutely no valid excuse for not fighting the good fight. It’s very difficult, but no one I know is in it to find a comfort zone. Here in Los Angeles, I am surrounded by a growing number of young people who are happy to be part of Lyndon LaRouche’s movement, and I am also happy.
I assure you, there is no combination of words that you can ever put together on this message board that can ever change that.
(...)
TOM
| Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 1:10 pm: |
Now they're singing, "Ain't Gonna Let Nobody Turn Us Around!"
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SCOTT ANSWERS TOM
| Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 3:55 pm: |
Yes Tom, they're singing SLAVE SPIRITUALS. I wonder why those songs are so appealing to the "movement" and its leadership? I'm sure those kids are also slowly destroying their relationships with their parents and friends. Losing any sense of their individuality. Becoming thin. Getting screamed at that they are weak or degenerate if they feel they can't keep up 16 hours day (or at least aren't pulling in the money they need to).
I think it's great that you do have 100 voices telling you everything is ok, drowning out reason--I know how hard it is to see through--I can imagine anyone in Rev Moon's cult in a stadium of 100,000 thinking,"This is what God intended." Or a Krishna in the middle of a drum circle, or a Jonestowner living in perfect harmony in the woods, or any other person who was going through a transitional period in life and was snatched up by a cult and given an entire life to live. There were two types of people in the "movement"--manipulators and the manipulated. I have a feeling Tom that you are one of the latter, but maybe beginning to "graduate" to being one of the former. You're starting to understand how to use personal attacks to undermine someone's confidence in their own beliefs. Learning how to use guilt to get money out of people more effectively, how to stroke their prejudices. You're learning like many Larouchies and other cult members before you how susceptible young women are in the first few months of "organizing". You're starting to see the patterns of behavior, and changes in speech, that happen to everyone that comes there. How, after a while, though they all come with personal goals and artistic differences, they soon come to think exactly like you and everyone around you does, and you've all decided, all 500 of you or so, to save the whole world from itself. And that beautiful sacrifice you're making, for the betterment of all human kind, that sacrifice that makes your ego swell, that sacrifice makes you worthy of being a Philosopher King (someday), that sacrifice, means its not important what your actual political effect is, it's not important that you break up real political conferences like the fascist organizers of old, its not necessary to defend the fact that Larouche writings starkly resemble the writings of Hitler, there's no need to explain why young wives are pressured to have abortions against their will, it doesn't matter that you've taken advantage of feeble-minded seniors and duped them out of their fortunes, it's not important that the "crash" has been coming for thirty years, there's no need to explain why "leaders" in each region have nice homes while street organizers are packed into Apartments like sardines, and that of course, since "we" are collectively making such a huge sacrifice, there's no reason why anyone needs to think for themself.
So we have a rally to swell our egos, yelling at the sky in a group of thirty, we go interupt real candidates speeches to give us a sense of importance, behind closed doors talk about "the population" to inflate our sense of superiority, and till late in the night read about the works of great human beings, so that the next day we can stand in front of a Post office and beg for money,and hope to get enough that nobody is angry with you. Like a whore in the street, but instead of selling your body, selling ideas of virtue and beauty and humanistic goals. And like whores you all have a special case of VD--a mix of totalitarianism, fascism, and racism.
I'm sorry that you can't see it.
I understand though.
It's a hard world in which to be a sovereign individual and make your own choices.
I had a friend in the "movement" that begged me to get her away, said she was scared for her life. She talked that way on and off for 6 months. Then after I left, I called her one day to tell her I would help her go, but she told me she had been "doing a lot of work" with Debbie and Larry(regional leaders). She now understood her "place in the universe" and it was "fighting the oligarchy". Her voice had even changed back to the higher tone I was used to hearing when she spat out her verbatim scripts to people she was "organizing". She literally had a split personality, her real one, and a Larouche personality, that used words like "oligarchy" and "Universe" and talked on "the highest level".
Most of them were like that if you got close enough (at least the ones who had been there long enough). They still had their real self hiding underneath the personality that had been broken down and built in Larouche's image, sometimes it would peek out just for a minute or two, but in a flash it would be gone again. Those are people that I still have hope for. Others, older ones usually, had broken down their old self and hid it away so far it could never come back, or never liked themselves to begin with so they don't see any reason to go back.
Which one are you Tom?
I think you should go do some reading Tom, read Mein Kampf, read The Battle For the Mind, challenge yourself.
Ask the hard question.
Am I in a cult?
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TOM ANSWER TO SCOTT
| Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 6:53 pm: |
When I was a child, I thought like a child. Now I see things clearly. You are still thinking like a child. Did you mean to say that sometimes the little child would peek out for just a minute or two?
In any case, your description is ugly, like your snipe about the spirituals. I would have quit that organization too. Then, if I wanted to experience true joy, I would have joined the one I'm in now.
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SCOTT
| Posted on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 10:56 am |
No Tom, the real person comes out, the human being, who after years of life experiences and learning has come to know things and react in the ways that make them who they are. Every one comes in to that organization as an individual, but the longer they stay the more "homogenized" they become, and I know you know exactly what I mean. There is absolutely no individuality, no personal interest, no free will. It's inhuman.
Of course my description is ugly. I have seen ugliness in my life; watching drugs destroy friends or family, the extreme racism of Mississippi, cops beating protesters, sweatshop workers, war, murder, cruelty--none of these things are more ugly, and vile, and corrupt than what the "Larouche Movement" is doing to young people. It's psychological expirementation on wheels. Political attack dog-guinea pigs. What those people are doing is stealing the most precious gift we get as humans and turning it to their own purposes. And if you would just step outside of the situation and examine it rationally you would understand that. You would see the pattern of exploitation that is taking place. The use of your fears about the world, to cement your dedication to a group and a man who, to be honest, don't have very great track records.
Sure, the world is a hard place--but if you would just realize that the "movement" claims to be fighting everything the interior organization is:
It is a complete totalitarian dictatorship.
People are paid a very low wage.
The "movement" produces nothing of value or usefullness.
There is "one way" for everything, not a "Dialogue of Civilizations".
The organization has cheated people out of money and the leadership will admit this.
The organization focuses on the less-educated, the poor, and promising them salvation for support(money), effectively loots poor areas.
They talk about "the population" as if they were separate somehow from them, and obviously better than them, which to me sounds a lot like the attitude of a fascist, or a racist, or an oligarch.
The organization spends a great deal of time talking about the "brainwashing" of the public by mass media, etc., while using the exact same techniques on its followers(just the simple repititon used in Hitler's "Big Lie" theory--how many times a day do you hear the world is headed for disaster Tom?).
I remember the week after I realized what was going on there, I just walked around in horror and disgust at everything I saw, everything was so transparent once my eyes were open. I lobbied Congress with a group of 10 or so Larouchies--I had been 5 or 6 times before with them, it always seemed productive, and that the people we spoke with respected us. I'll never forget how that last time that I went I could see the smile in every Legislative Assistant's eyes as he listened to people rant about Universal Physical Principles, FDR, and Geometry. I noticed the EIRs in trash cans of offices that others had already visited. I watched with pure horror as one young girl forced a cheaply printed piece of literature into an LA's hand and pleaded,"You've got to read it, it's deep philosophical stuff."
I could finally see that we were just one of the freakshows in the political circus.
And everyone knew except for us.
(...)
SCOTT
| Posted on Monday, March 01, 2004 - 2:06 pm: |
My glass is half full? The one thing I know about the folks in the Larouche movement is that they are all very well trained in the ways of rhetoric and argument--you, Tom, seem to be failing in that respect. I'm starting to wonder if you're an organizer at all, maybe you're just somebody that's been hanging around the "movement" forever, but never really goes "whole hog".
Can you imagine getting into an argument on the street, or better yet standing at a literature table, and having someone tell you that you are expressing pessimism, and so you should,"make it the opposite," and it will sound much better? Doesn't that sound a bit like doublespeak, Tom?
Doesn't that sound like lying?
I understand what you're trying to say Tom. My argument is based on a wholly unjustified feeling state, and therefore is invalid. However, I'm making concrete factual points, and not emotional appeals. When I say that L's "Beyond Psychoanalysis" is a step-by-step brainwashing manual, what you need to do is then go out and get a book on the dialectic method(s) of mind control. Then you need to compare it to what you read in "Beyond Psyche". You will find they are EXTREMELY similar, to the point that "Beyond Psyche" is really just a paraphrasing of what might be called "The Manual for Mind Control". However you will not do that. It's potentially damaging to you.
Those who didn't break in the first couple weeks were the ones that got screamed at a lot. They were also usually the ones that after a month or so would find some back door to flee from, after a good night's rest, or a visit to a friend. What I think usually happens is, there's too big of a contradiction, some concrete fact or action that flies in the face of what the "leaders" are saying, and it brings down the whole house of cards. Your fundamental axiom that is incorrect is that the "movement" has a positive effect in the world. That's why you are unable to refute the things I write with cogent arguments Tom.
The truth is always there waiting for you--since Day One, Tom, you have been learning about how people run operations, religous/political groups brainwash people, and the basic mechanisms people use to attain power. The question you must ask , Tom, you must look around yourself and ask,"What is the operation HERE?" What's going on? What's actually happening? People speeding off in all directions every morning to collect money, to come home in the afternoon to collect more money. 6 days a week. And what comes of it? There are never any results, Tom. Well, regional leaders live in nice homes, and seem to have their pick of sexual partners among the organizers. I guess something comes of it. Lyn travels the globe giving speeches to half empty auditoriums.
You've been fooled, Tom.
So was I.
So were a lot of people.
I know you're starting to suspect that.
If you're younger, I hope you get out of there.
If you wait too long, you won't be able to leave, or at least it will be very difficult. People in my office were not only trapped psychologically, but in some cases physically (literally not allowed to leave by means of force). Not to mention after being there for any length of time you will have become virtually unemployable, have no money to escape with, and be living hand-to-mouth.
If all of what I'm saying is untrue Tom, it shouldn't be hard for you to go away for a week and come back. You should go visit your family Tom.
Try to find a friend you had before this.
Remember that once you didn't wake up in the morning constantly thinking about a man who, honestly, hasn't accomplished very much.
It will be hard to admit Tom. The truth when you're in that situation is terrifying. You have made so many choices reaffirming the beliefs that were given to you. Social networks. Simple daily habits. You have to open your mind. Get some rest. For a moment stop thinking about the tasks you've been assigned, throw off the slave mentality.
Take a good hard look at what I've written on the board.
See if the ideaological claims of the "movement" line up with the physical actions of it.
To all else posting on this board, I think you should try and be nice to Tom, I remember telling people the exact same things he's pushing, I remember being excited, and thinking I was fighting to save the world. It was great. Finding out that there were dozens of groups (cults with a prophet that used mind control) around the world just like it was heartbreaking. To admit that I had been tricked after spending months arguing with people otherwise (from my family and friends to people on the street), was the hardest thing. Give Tom some space to breathe. Something terrible has happened to him. If he didn't at least suspect it I don't think he would be here.
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TOM answers
| Posted on Monday, March 01, 2004 - 9:20 pm: |
If that's your attitude, take the rest of your life off. Visit your friends and family. Get a therapist. I think you just found the organizing too difficult, and got frustrated. Then, you looked for an excuse to give up.
You might succeed in getting LaRouche’s opponents on this message board to believe that your problems are typical, and that your description of events on this message board is accurate, but around here, things are very different. If they weren’t, we would not be recruiting so many new people, and having so much fun. For your sake, and others like you, I hope LaRouche is all wrong about the political and economic situation, but I don’t think he is. According to your own words, neither do you:
“I think politically some of the ideas are apt, and the economy of the world is hurting”
Here is how I will remember Scott:
One day, Scott met the LaRouche organization:
“I think a number of their platforms are very sensible, and they do espouse revolutionary ideas that could really help the world, not to mention that they have an amazing intelligence gathering organization, and are often on the forefront of breaking scandals. LaRouche himself is an extremely intelligent man.”
Scott made some progress:
“All were encouraged to take up intense study projects, and I had taken up several into MLK, Plato, and Shakespeare since I began working with them. These things kept my life rich and I was learning like I had when I was in college, so I felt good about being there.”
So, he became an organizer:
“I organized for them full time almost immediately after attending one of their retreats”
Scott even organized the Congress:
“I lobbied Congress with a group of 10 or so Larouchies--I had been 5 or 6 times before with them, it always seemed productive, and that the people we spoke with respected us.”
But Scott had lingering personal problems. He
“was going through a transitional period in life”
He became depressed and fearful:
“Like a whore in the street, but instead of selling your body, selling ideas of virtue and beauty and humanistic goals.”
“the thought that I was just "scared of the fight" occurred to me also”
“I went to the library and picked up a few books… After an hour of reading I was scared out of my wits.”
Scott had lost his wits. Evidently, among the scary stuff Scott had begun to read was Mein Kampf, and some KKK literature. He tried to get others to read:
“It's a hard world in which to be a sovereign individual and make your own choices.”
“I think you should go do some reading Tom, read Mein Kampf”
Scott’s condition worsened. He began to hear voices:
“I remember at one point walking around in a crowded grocery store, and vaguely hearing "Larouche" seeming to emanate from the lips of people who were conversing with each other”
Eventually, Scott began to have sick thoughts about death:
“I can definitely say that I hope he [LaRouche] dies soon… I also have a feeling that many of them [LaRouche youth] will commit suicide when he finally kicks it.”
Hey, Scott! You should have stayed with the MLK, Plato, and Shakespeare!
“I remember being excited, and thinking I was fighting to save the world. It was great.”
*********************************
SCOTT
| Posted on Tuesday, March 02, 2004 - 1:02 pm: |
That's precisely it Tom! THAT is the insanity I'm referring to. The need to filter and revise all history/current events to fit the Larouche world view. It's as if someone wrote "I would love to hurt you" and you picked out,"I love you"--the words are there right?
I'm very concerned about this Tom. You obviously spent some time on this. I'm wondering how entrenched you've become in the "movement", how long they've had you. Have they moved you away from your state/country of origin?
Context is an amazing thing; if anyone else had written something akin to that I would say its a very clever argument, but I understand what I'm dealing with, and its the psychological beating you've taken that made that your only solution.
In the dialectic method of brainwashing, someone is questioned (usually rapidly)until some contradiction is made. That contradiction is used to hammer at a person's defenses, used to convince them that they are confused or wrong--then some indoctrination can occur directly after they breakdown. You've been having a hard time dealing with me, because everything is written down, and has to make sense. The organizing model for Larouchies is to put people in a stressed mind state, and then pile information onto them after they've been softened up, and then ask them to do something. For a $2 donation at a lit table, a good scare about the economy and their future is enough; if one were being forced to kill their unborn child so they don't have to get a real job and leave the cult it would take several hours of softening up, using past incidents that may be highly personal and using a pressure group that includes a lingering threat to personal security (a blocked door perhaps).
One day I stayed in the office instead of going out in the field, I was about 2-3 months in, and just starting to feel like I was accepted (though I was still being accused of being an "agent"). About mid-day we broke for a conference call with Lyn. Through the speaker, Larouche is assessing his troops. About an hour into it, an "incident" was brought up concerning Marcia. Marcia is in her fifties, and is about 5' 2", I doubt she weighs over a hundred pounds. The incident concerns Marcia, her husband, and a roommate--it seems like some frivolous dispute, but no one is mentioning any specifics; it could have been about stealing a bagel or high treason. Marcia is being questioned about her view of the events, which obviously took place inside of her house with the two other organizers. Lyn begins to tell his version of the event (though of course he was not there). He tells her it is her "witch" flying around. This incenses Marcia, who has a very clear perspective on what happened, and feels she has been wronged. This back and forth happens for a few minutes, but Marcia, not up to the dialectic skill of Lyn,is becoming confused and upset. He is telling her over and over his version of the events and intermingling into his statements descriptions of her fears and personal shortcomings and telling her it was her own emotional state that was making her view things the way she did. She has begun weeping. Others in the room are interjecting their thoughts of what "her problem is" and they confer as if she wasn't there. Marcia is slowly shaking her head "no" and staring at the floor through tears. Someone who also wasn't in the house during the incident begins a diatribe on how "we are all scared of the mission, and Marcia's problem is that...". Lyn agrees, and tells Marcia it's time that she confessed, and told the truth about what happened.
"That's NOT what happened." She says sternly to the phone on the floor. Debbie Freeman, who had been hovering nearby, quickly moved in front of Marcia's chair. Debbie is nearly 6 feet tall and not thin by any standard. She begins yelling at Marcia.
"ADMIT IT, MARCIA."
"no, that's not how it happened"
Marcia has by this point broken into a real sobs, Debbie repeats her command relentlessly, but Marcia holds on to her response. After a few rounds Marcia can no longer respond. She is crying hysterically. Finally she stands, and says,"I'm getting out of here," (by which she means the room).
"DON'T LET HER LEAVE!" yells Debbie, as Marcia scurries toward the door, Debbie, seeing no one respond to her order, dashes for the door and blocks her way. Debbie, towering over Marcia, grips her shoulders and physically moves her back to her chair. Marcia is told to sit down. She does so, still sobbing. Debbie leans in and talks sternly to Marcia, but in a quiet soothing tone, recounting the "truth" to Marcia one last time. Marcia can no longer fight back so she just sits and cries. The room slowly clears out as the phone team heads back to the calling room. I am sitting in the corner, Marcia is in the middle of the room crying.
It would be months before I understood what had happened in that room, though I would see the same event unfold dozens of times, with greater and lesser degrees of severity, with different characters, different incidents and locations.
Larouche describes these sessions in his essays "Beyond Psychoanalysis" and claims the method is the most powerful psychological tool available to help people overcome their own fears and problems. However, a full twenty-five years before Lyn wrote those essays, the world was just becoming aware of "Brainwashing". Robert Lifton, Edgar Schein, and William Sargant put out books describing what was happening in the re-education camps of the Chinese. Lyn's essays take the core strategies of the method and puts them in a slightly altered form--I guess the main difference is just that Lifton or Schein would portray it in a negative light, because they see it as monstrous.
Lyndon Larouche, however, who is obviously an "ends justifies the means" type of guy. He believes that the lack of morality will eventually destroy society. I think he feels that brainwashing people in order to spread his beliefs is justified. He has no intention of being President you know, I think he just feels that in the "war of ideas", the "good ideas"--which means conservative European ideas--the only way to win is to send his flock out to prosyletize. And his "work" of course gives him super human status that excuses him from any wrongdoing, such as the subversion of your free will Tom.
Look it up.
Do the reading.
Find out what has happened to you.
As to staying with King, Plato, and Shakespeare, I have done so--I perform Shakespeare, discuss Plato with friends, and work on campaigns to help labor unions at hom and abroad organize. It's not my job though, so I'm not begging for money, and the most amazing thing of all, the biggest difference, is that when I work on a campaign, I see results. Actual physical results. Actual people making more money, and getting better work conditions.
That's the difference between a political movement and a cult, Tom. The only result your organization produces is more brainwashed people. That's how you measure success Tom. More people are joining up! More people sing our songs! And the leadership counts success in dollars, because then, "We can get more people to join up( whisper:and get nice houses)!". But the organization doesn't DO anything but leech off the working class.
(...)
| SCOTT Posted on Thursday, March 04, 2004 - 8:45 am: |
That's not a domestic dispute Tom. People in this country don't have workplaces where incidents like that occur. Legally, what I described would be called kidnapping. Assault and battery. You cannot (legally) physically force people to sit and listen to you scream at them.
There are no holes in my argument, Tom.
I'm sorry, Tom. You have no idea how much it hurts me to read your posts and remember when I was like that. There I had found the freedom of mental slavery--for a short while I had actually put every desire and dream of my own away, and given over nearly every decision in my life to other people. At first it was just where I would live, and go during the day, what I would read, and say to people, eventually I was to the point where I would think whatever they told me to. I'm sure there was something you wanted to do with your life before this Tom. It's very easy though to let someone else make all of your decisions for you, to not have to take risks, to have no uncertainty. I know how safe it feels.
But its not real, Tom. Groups like that are everywhere. You can find descriptions of them on this website and others. The descriptions aren't Larouche slanders, they're not written by "agents of the oligarchy", they're not "operations". The "movement" just uses the same tactics and has the same basic goals of a dozen other cults.
I know it's hard to see, Tom. If your Mother is not in the "movement" you should call her and talk about this with her. I know, I know, your mother is just inundating you with her "Mother's fears" about the big outside world and perhaps is a corrupt baby boomer. However, she probably also knows you better than anyone else in the world, she probably remembers when you used to have goals of your own, interests and activities. Call her, I'm sure she misses you.
Here is something posted on this site:
Common Properties of Potentially Destructive and Dangerous Cults
The cult tends to be totalitarian in its control of the behavior of its members. Cults are likely to dictate in great detail what members wear, eat, when and where they work, sleep, and bathe-as well as what to believe, think, and say.
The cult's leaders center the veneration of members upon themselves. Priests, rabbis, ministers, democratic leaders, and leaders of genuinely altruistic movements keep the veneration of adherents focused on God, abstract principles, and group purposes. Cult leaders, in contrast, keep the focus of love, devotion, and allegiance on themselves.
The cult's leaders are self-appointed, messianic persons who claim to have a special mission in life.
The cult is authoritarian in its power structure. The leader is regarded as the supreme authority. He or she may delegate certain power to a few subordinates for the purpose of seeing that members adhere to the leader's wishes and roles. There is no appeal outside of his or her system to greater systems of justice.
The cult has basically only two purposes, recruiting new members and fund-raising. Established religions and altruistic movements may also recruit and raise funds. However, their sole purpose is not to grow larger; such groups have the goals to better the lives of their members and mankind in general. The cults may claim to make socialcontributions, but in actuality these remain mere claims, or gestures. Their focus is always dominated by recruiting new members and fund-raising.
(...)
| Posted on Monday, March 08, 2004 - 4:30 pm: |
Back to Anonymous (the "WTF" guy) the real scare in Larouche is separating the crap from the truth. You may know that we live in a world where bad people do bad things, and sometimes they are kept secret. What the L team will do is foind out things--intelligence horrible acts governments commit (genocide etc.), and scare the crap out of young people that this is happening all around them, and, most importantly, that because the L team may be the only people talking about the problem, that the only way to not be complicit with the problem is to join "the fight" and work for them. Of course "the fight" consists of collecting money, and finding more people to collect money, and while all this is going on a psychological profile is being created on the person--each person in the group who spends a day with him reports back anything personal they've learned, and he's watched very closely in general, and finally, after a few weeks or so, he has some questions. He's not sure what's going on in the "movement". He's tired, he's hungry, he's been bombarded with information that is very specific, connecto-s of weird plots that have happened in history. He's sent into to the leader's office to have his questions taken care of, and it begins. The real mental workover, the yelling, the pschological profile is put to work, the personal information comes out--anything he might have been embarassed or ashamed of his hammered on until he admits he's wrong. In his weakened state he's told to buck up, there's a chance to redeem yourself and save the world tomorrow...you may go now. And he begins to work at it, frightened of haing his mental buttons pushed again, which they surely will be, he does the best he can--in a few months--everything they say is pure truth.
The Battle for the Mind, William Sargant. Read it start there, you can help him, but you have to understand what happened to him, and whats still happening.
And yeah Tom is losing his edge, because he's starting to see the patterns, I've told him what's happening and its getting a bit clearer.
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